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Gary,

Can a 25mm Very flare pistol be fired out the window of an aircraft
going 100+ knots and if AE and Noonan had done this at 1000 feet or so
would the Ithasca been able to see the flare. I think both AE,
Ithasca, and Howland should have been firing flares like crazy. The
first rescue I was involved in had the distressed sailboat fire a
flare which I saw at 20 NM from a 100 foot height of eye.

Greg

On Nov 19, 1:17�pm, "glap...@pacbell.net"  wrote:
> Item 23 of the inventory
>
> 23 � � �*1 � � �" � � � � �Signal Pistol, No. A-56, Mark III, one inch
>
> was the flare gun or "Very Pistol." It used the the standard one inch
> diameter cartridges (which we now call 25 mm) and item 33 shows 14 of
> the cartridges.
>
> see:
>
> http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.dkimages.com/discov...
>
> gl
>
> gl
>
> On Nov 19, 11:10�am, Gary LaPook  wrote:
>
> > To answer your question i am copying this post form an Earhart forum:
>
> > � � Dear Colleagues,
> > � �Some "check and diggging" in the books gives a general impression
> > that the life raft was still aboard the AE's Electra at takeoff in
> > Lae... altough still not for 100% probability i'd say.
>
> > � The book "Amelia, My Courageous Sister" (M.Morrissey, C.Osborne), on
> > the pages 191-192, reproduces a photocopies of 2 pages from the "New
> > York Herald Tribune" from March 7, 1937.
> > � � �In particular, it says:
>
> > � "In the fuselage will be a two-man rubber lifeboat, instantly
> > inflatable from capsules of carbon dioxyde. Likewise a Very pistol for
> > firing distress signals, flares that ignite on the surfaceof the water,
> > and, as she [AE - alex] says, "a very orange" orange kite. "If we sit
> > down somewhere in the Pacific and stay afloat, I'd like to be noticed,"
> > says Miss Earhart ".
>
> > � � In the same book, starting from page 256, an extensive "summary
> > report" of the Commander Lexington Group to the Commandant, 14th Naval
> > district is quoted. The report lists the related data available and used
> > during the search - being "grouped" into "categories", of which two
> > first ones are: "A.Known Facts", and "B. Probabilities arising from
> > rumor or reasonable assumptions".
>
> > � In a category "A", the point 3 says: 3). That a two man rubber life
> > boat, life belts, flares and emergency water and rations were carried.
> > (page 257 of the book).
> > � In a caregory "B", the point 3 says: 3). That the color of the
> > lifeboatwas yellow. (Page 258 of the book).
>
> > � � �In the book "The Hunt For Amelia Earhart" (D.Westfall, R.K.Mater),
> > on page 3 there is a statement:
>
> > � �"...emergency equipment was carried as well, including a multi-color
> > flare gun, a bright-yellow inflatible lifeboat, parachutes...". Page 51
> > of the same book mentions the message sent by GP to Washington in July
> > 2, 1937, - requesting the Navy's aid in a search for AE, and quoted by
> > "San Francisco Cronicle":
> > � "There was a two-man rubber lifeboat aboard the plane, together with
> > lifebelts, flares, a Very pistol and a large yellow signal kite which
> > could be flown above the plane or the liferaft".
> > � The same information is quoted in the book "Amelia" (D.Goldstein,
> > K.Dillon), page 241.
>
> > � � In the Mary Lovell's book "The Sound of Wings", on page 259, there
> > is an evidence of Joe Gurr - one of AE's radio consultants and advisors
> > - about the preparations for the "first attempt".
> > � �Gurr "had spent an entire day with Manning laying out all the safety
> > equipment in front of the hangar, testing - as far as possible -
> > everything. They inflated the life raft..." -
>
> > �- i.e., certainly the life raft WAS a part of the equipment AE did have
> > in that moment. �
>
> > � �In the same book on the page 267, there is a following quote however
> > - about the final preparations at Lae:
>
> > � �"...Her obsession with weight may have been taken to extreme length,
> > for according to Harry Balfour, radio operator at Lae, survival
> > equipment was also taken off. Balfour claimed that "she unloaded all her
> > surplus equipment on me including her [Very] pistol and ammunition,
> > books, letters and facility books"".
>
> > � � This word "including" makes the whole phrase puzzling... as if the
> > listed items {Very pistol, books etc.} were only a part of what was
> > unloaded - so what else from the "surplus/survival equipment" could be
> > unloaded too?... No answer for this.
>
> > � �On the page 288, describing the imaginary scenario of the 
emergencywater landing, Lovell wrote: "the life raft and emergency equipment 
were
>
> > housed behind the rear cabin bulkhead at the rear of the plane"...
> > clearly assuming that it was still aboard. �
>
> > � �In general, it seems to me, it all makes an impression that most
> > probably the life raft �should be still aboard - IF only AE and FN,
> > because of their "obsession with weight", did not unload it before the
> > Lae-Howland leg... But, as it seems, the searchers of the time
> > (Lexington Group) obviously assumed that AE and FN still did have it
> > aboard, on that leg.
>
> > � Kind regards - sincerely, Alex
>
> > 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
------------------------------------------------
> > I responded:
>
> > Alex wrote, quoting Lovell's book:
>
> > � "...Her obsession with weight may have been taken to extreme length,
> > for according to Harry Balfour, radio operator at Lae, survival
> > equipment was also taken off. Balfour claimed that "she unloaded all her
> > surplus equipment on me including her [Very] pistol and ammunition,
> > books, letters and facility books"".
>
> > What Balfour actually said was:
>
> > "...[A]ll messages received from her were forwarded to her husband
> > together with some private papers she left with me at the radio station,
> > she also gave me her automatic pistol and ammunition and some radio
> > facility books, but these I do not have now they became lost during the
> > war."
>
> > Letter from Balfour reprinted as exhibit 38 in Safford's book.
>
> > Long also writes:
>
> > "Earhart handed the package ...to Balfour...Balfour opened the paper and
> > inside was a 32-caliber handgun with a small box of ammunition."
>
> > Long, page 192.
>
> > So, there is no support for the idea that they left survival equipment
> > behind.
>
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------
>
> > The inventory done after the ground loop �in Hawaii lists a raft and
> > other survival equipment. See:
>
> >http://www.tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/Documents/Luke_Field.html
>
> > gl
>
> > Ronald P Barrett wrote:
> > > Greg, I taught sea survival for the international airlines and did
> > > actual exercises. One can well survive in the central Pacific open
> > > ocean in a life jacket for hours to days. Depends on the entry injuries.
>
> > > Therefore I would ask: 1. Did AE have raft? �2. What type? Two man?
> > > One man? This relates directly to its size. �3. How was it bundled?
> > > The configuration is important. 4. What did it weigh? Important to
> > > weight & balance of this size of plane. 5. Was it tied down? 6. How
> > > was it tied down? 7. What were the rafts egress points? This is
> > > important, because it leads to what window or door could they get it
> > > out of. This then begs the question of what was the possible attitude
> > > of the plane in the water? If the plane went tail up: I doubt that
> > > they could have gotten the aft cabin door open to the point of the
> > > raft going out. 8. How was this type of raft to be inflated? 9.Did
> > > they have sea-dye? 10.Flares? 11. Did they have life jackets?
>
> > > It is interesting that no floating debree was ever reported//// or was
> > > it? I had read the center fuel tank vent scoops were bottom centerline
> > > of the plane. Any one ever see tests data on possible water intake
> > > upon ditching on these?
>
> > > Sea conditions are a big factor on the out �come of a ditching. What
> > > exactly were the reported sea conditions at that the possible ditching
> > > time? What are the out-comes known of Twin Beech ditchings over the
> > > years? Would the empty fuel tanks have rendered the plane "floatable?"
>
> > > As a former Pacific Nav I really do wonder why nothing was found. I
> > > find that hard to believe.
>
> > > DR'n away, Ron Barrett, President Air Force Navigators Observers
> > > Association (AFNOAwww.afnoa.org) USAF Ret.
>
> > > --- On *Thu, 11/19/09, Greg Rudzinski //* wrote:
>
> > > � � From: Greg Rudzinski 
> > > � � Subject: [NavList 10753] Re: Amelia Earhart's aerial navigation
> > > � � To: "NavList" 
> > > � � Date: Thursday, November 19, 2009, 11:54 AM
>
> > > � � Excellent post Gary. Thanks.
>
> > > � � A few more questions. The abrupt ending of voice radio transmission
> > > � � implies trouble. Is it possible that the batteries/magneto and or fuel
> > > � � pump failed then causing a ditch short of Howland on the LOP
> > > � � approach ? What were there chances without a life raft?
>
> > > � � Greg
>
> > > � � On Nov 18, 9:59 pm, Gary LaPook  > > � � > wrote:
> > > � � > Greg Rudzinski asked:
>
> > > � � > Maybe Gary can comment on the following:
> > > � � > 1. Time tick before departure.
> > > � � > 2. Sobriety of Noonan.
> > > � � > 3. Life raft.
> > > � � > 4. Radio antenna.
> > > � � > 5. Head winds.
> > > � � > 6. Celestial opportunities.
> > > � � > 7. Sleep deprivation.
> > > � � > 8. Was it possible to fly right over Howland Island and not see it?
> > > � � > 9. Was Howland charted correctly.
> > > � � > 10.What would have been a better less risky route?
>
> > > � � > Gary wrote:
>
> > > � � > Fred may have had a drinking problem but many people with such a
> > > � � problem
> > > � � > manage to show up sober for work on Monday mornings because
> > > �...
>
> read more �

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