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A Community Devoted to the Preservation and Practice of Celestial Navigation and Other Methods of Traditional Wayfinding
Re: Fwd: Principles and Being Practical
From: Courtney Thomas
Date: 2003 Sep 11, 20:06 -0500
From: Courtney Thomas
Date: 2003 Sep 11, 20:06 -0500
Thanks again Phil. I have the HO 249 set. I just wondered if Susan Howell's book would apply equally well to 249 as 229. Cordially, Courtney HGWorks - Phil Guerra wrote: > Basically, > > The methods are closely related, being different in the tables used to > acquire the data in the sight reduction, and some technique variations. The > HO 249 is a 3 volume set originally designed for use by aviation navigators, > and the HO 229 is an six volume set, with far more solutions. However, the > HO229 is costly and probably not the most widely used by other than the most > serious navigators. That's why short tables, such as Bayless, and Ageton > are still used, though not as much with the advent of cheap navigation > computers and GPS. > > Really, though I think you can adapt from either, it just takes finding your > way through one of the methods and getting a good feel for it. Again, I'm > sure others could help you assess which one is right for you. The precision > of the HO 229 is probably more than you need on a regular basis, but you > never know what you miss until you don't have it. Check out the US Navy > site to read more about it, and take a look at their great documentation and > computer utilities at this site: > http://aa.usno.navy.mil/publications/ > > Still if you need to move quickly, you may need to contact a Sailing / > Navigation School. My desk rarely moves, so I've got a little more time to > play with than you, I suspect. > > Take care, > > Phil > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Courtney Thomas"> To: > Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2003 5:22 AM > Subject: Re: Fwd: Principles and Being Practical > > > >>Phil, >> >>Thank you for the book information. >> >>What is the difference between HO 249 and HO 229 techniques ? >> >>Cordially, >>Courtney >> >> >> >>HGWorks - Phil Guerra wrote: >> >> >>>Sorry for the tardy reply. Yes, I've got Mary Blewitt's book, as well, >>>although, I've misplaced it. I found it to be a really good reference, >>> > and > >>>it's compact size made it easy to take to work for reading on my breaks. >>> > If > >>>I remember correctly, she uses the H.O.249 to do sight reductions. Other >>>methods are given some mention, but not really examined. >>> >>>The book I really worked through was Susan Powell's Practical Celestial >>>Navigation. It's more like a workbook giving lots of examples and >>>solutions. She uses the H.O. 229 for her sight reduction work. I think, >>>the method you use depends on your specific needs. What's most important >>> > is > >>>that you know your method down pat, and have a backup method or two. >>> >>>I know many of the list's group could tell you more, I've no real >>> > experience > >>>in actual on-board CN. I'm just in awe and admire all who are able to do >>>it. I enjoy the mechanics of the process of CN because it emcompasses so >>>many of my interests into an area that uses them all. Good luck to you. >>> >>>Phil Guerra >>>www.hgworks.com >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "Courtney Thomas" >>>To: >>>Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 4:29 PM >>>Subject: Re: Fwd: Principles and Being Practical >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>Phil, >>>> >>>>Thanks so much for the fulsome reply. >>>> >>>>I am a non-armchair sailor and am trying to find the best, i.e. easiest >>>>that meets real world navigational needs, CN technique rather than a >>>>more abstract interest but thank goodness for such. >>>> >>>>I suspect Newton would've probably been a poor farmer but gratefully so. >>>> >>>>For now I just don't want to waste time/energy learning one technique to >>>> later learn that it was not the most suitable. >>>> >>>>It's not that it is intrinsically uninteresting it's that my agenda is >>>>reversed, at this time. >>>> >>>>Incidentally, are you familiar with Mary Blewitt's book ? If yes, what >>>>do you think of it ? >>>> >>>>Cordially, >>>>Courtney >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>HGWorks - Phil Guerra wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>The Ageton method is not discussed in Bennett's book. It is really a >>>>>compact treatment of the subject designed for use on-board. As far as >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>the >>> >>> >>> >>>>>best explanation of the method, I never really found anything more than >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>his >>> >>> >>> >>>>>book, "Manual of Celestial Navigation" in print. I found the book by >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>chance >>> >>> >>> >>>>>in a used book store, but have seen it offered on Ebay for around an >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>average >>> >>> >>> >>>>>price of 10-20 dollars (US). Unfortunately, the book is not really a >>>>>'teaching guide' but probably was used to supplement classroom >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>instruction. >>> >>> >>> >>>>>Another, offshoot of the method was put forward by Allan E. Bayless, >>>>>"Compact Sight Reduction Table", again using a slight modification of >>>>>Ageton's method. This book is out of print as well, and I found a copy >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>on >>> >>> >>> >>>>>Ebay. >>>>> >>>>>My expanding CN library includes, Bowditch, Dutton's Navigation & >>>>> >>>>> >>>Piloting, >>> >>> >>> >>>>>which all refer to the method, but really do not give it much clarity, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>at >>> >>> >>> >>>>>least for me coming in as a novice. This lead me to ask questions on >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>this >>> >>> >>> >>>>>list about it. I did find a good description on a referenced web site >>>>>http://home.t-online.de/home/h.umland/page3.htm, by Henning Umland, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>which >>> >>> >>> >>>>>cleared up most of the questions regarding how to use it, as his >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>authored, >>> >>> >>> >>>>>"The Ageton Tables", gives some good description of the method, >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>examples, >>> >>> >>> >>>>>and solutions. Umland did expand the method a bit by providing a new >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>set of >>> >>> >>> >>>>>tables to give it more accuracy. The site is a great starting point >>>>>information regarding CN in general, and he has a lot of very useful CN >>>>>links. After going through Umland's article, I was able to go back to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>the >>> >>> >>> >>>>>Bowditch and Dutton books and understand the terse descriptions and >>>>> > work > >>>>> >>>the >>> >>> >>> >>>>>examples yielded the solutions. >>>>> >>>>>I've begun work on using the information gleamed from all of my sources >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>to >>> >>> >>> >>>>>produce a web site to teach the method, but it's stalled at present due >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>to >>> >>> >>> >>>>>other responsibilities. However, if you need help understanding it, >>>>> > let > >>>>> >>>me >>> >>> >>> >>>>>know via my existing web site www.hgworks.com using the Contact Us >>>>> > page. > >>>>> >>>I >>> >>> >>> >>>>>found that building the web application to use Ageton gave great >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>accuracy >>> >>> >>> >>>>>with the mathematical model, and using the table values gave it such >>>>>accuracy that it was, I believe in use for over 30 years, before >>>>> > falling > >>>>> >>>out >>> >>> >>> >>>>>of favor, due to technological advancements. There are questions of >>>>>accuracy in Azimuth calculation, and it is documented. >>>>> >>>>>Although, I'm a 'deskbound navigator', others who I've come into >>>>> > contact > >>>>>with on this list, indicate that the methods and books are still used >>>>>on-board, which is testament to the value of the work done. >>>>> >>>>>Hope this helps, >>>>> >>>>>Phil Guerra >>>>>www.hgworks.com >>>>> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: "Courtney Thomas" >>>>>To: >>>>>Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2003 4:15 AM >>>>>Subject: Re: Fwd: Principles and Being Practical >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>Is Ageton's method described in Bennett's book ? If not, where is the >>>>>>best exegesis of it, please ? >>>>>> >>>>>>Thank you. >>>>>> >>>>>>Dr. Geoffrey Kolbe wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>George Huxtable has pointed up a potential problem with the azimuth >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>tables >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>in George Bennett's book "The Complete On-board Celestial Navigator". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>He >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>has shown that there can be errors in computed azimuth of (at least) >>>>>>> > 15 > >>>>>>>degrees where the celestial body is that sort of distance away from >>>>>>> > the > >>>>>>>prime vertical. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Peter Fogg tells us that this is "nit-picking" and that in any case, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>the >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>book tells us that, "In extreme cases the table should be >>>>>>> > interpolated > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>when >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>observations have been made in the vicinity of the prime vertical." >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I do not have the second edition, only the 1999-2003 edition where >>>>>>> > this > >>>>>>>phrase is not present. Perhaps Peter can tell us just what "extreme" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>means >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>in this context? When do we know we are in an extreme case? George >>>>>>> > also > >>>>>>>posed some other pertinent questions to Peter and I too would be >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>interested >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>to see the answers... >>>>>>> >>>>>>>I also wonder just how much of a problem it would cause having your >>>>>>>near-prime-vertical azimuths off by around 15 degrees? For a cluster >>>>>>> > of > >>>>>>>star sights, say, a prudent navigator would also be taking sights >>>>>>> > from > >>>>>>>objects far away from the prime vertical (to get useful angular >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>separation) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>and this would tend to mitigate any problems due to bad >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>near-prime-vertical >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>azimuths. The inaccuracy of the tables near the prime vertical are >>>>>>> > also > >>>>>>>mitigated by being able to assess independently (in many cases) in >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>which >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>azimuth quadrant the celestial object sits. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If your estimated position is pretty close (say, within 10 nautical >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>miles) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>to your actual position then I cannot think of any circumstances >>>>>>> > where > >>>>>>> >>>it >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>would significantly affect the sort of accuracy we would expect from >>>>>>> > CN > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>in >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>a small boat at sea, which is the sort of user the book was aimed at >>>>>>> > in > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>the >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>first place. I have not thought deeply on this problem and I would >>>>>>>appreciate the thoughts of other listers who will have greater >>>>>>> > insight > >>>>>>> >>>on >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>this problem than I. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The "short" method of sight reduction used by Bennett is popular >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>because >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>the computed altitude can be arrived at quite quickly. But a >>>>>>> > different > >>>>>>>procedure is required to calculate an azimuth and this rather takes >>>>>>> > the > >>>>>>>gilt off this method. Ageton's method, by contrast, requires more >>>>>>> > steps > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>to >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>get to the calculated altitude, but the azimuth then drops out very >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>quickly >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>and is accurate. Azimuth quadrant ambiguities are also easily >>>>>>> > resolved. > >>>>>>>Too, only one set of tables is required for the Ageton method. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Geoffrey Kolbe >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>-------------------8<--------------------- >>>>>>>From: George Huxtable >>>>>>>The problem with these azimuth tables ... >>>>>>>is not in their ambiguity, but in their inaccuracy, and that >>>>>>> > inaccuracy > >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>is >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>exactly what I have complained about. And there is not one word, not >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>even >>> >>> >>> >>>>>a >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>hint, in the book that major errors in azimuth can occur, for certain >>>>>>>observations in a VERY wide swathe around East or West. >>>>>>>-------------------8<--------------------- >>>>>>>>From Peter Fogg >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Inserted in second edition is . "In extreme cases the table should be >>>>>>>interpolated when observations have been made in the vicinity of the >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>prime >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>vertical and/or LHA, declination and latitude require substantial >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>rounding >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>off before using the table. When in doubt use the Weir diagrams. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>In practice you could happily sail across an ocean and never notice >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>this >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>supposed problem, particularly by following the common sense approach >>>>>>>outlined previously. With nav. it it often a case of one system >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>checking >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>another. In fact taking sights and working out a fix is a check on >>>>>>> > the > >>>>>>>basic tool of running a DR. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>If the whole book has been subjected to the same searching criticism >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>and >>> >>> >>> >>>>>>>this rather inconsequential nit-pick is the only flaw found, then it >>>>>>> > is > >>>>>>>really a back-handed compliment to the book as a whole. A ferocious >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>critic >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>>seems to think the rest works just fine. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Border Barrels Ltd., Newcastleton, Roxburghshire, TD9 0SN, Scotland. >>>>>>>Tel. +44 (0)13873 76253 Fax. +44 (0)13873 76214. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>-- >>>>>>Courtney Thomas >>>>>>s/v Mutiny >>>>>>lying Oriental, NC >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>-- >>>>Courtney >>>>s/v Mutiny >>>>lying Oriental, NC >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>-- >>Courtney Thomas >>s/v Mutiny >>lying Oriental, NC >> >> > -- Courtney s/v Mutiny lying Oriental, NC