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A Community Devoted to the Preservation and Practice of Celestial Navigation and Other Methods of Traditional Wayfinding
Re: Magnetic Declination in the field - help required
From: Henry Halboth
Date: 2005 May 2, 10:33 -0400
From: Henry Halboth
Date: 2005 May 2, 10:33 -0400
George, Quoting from Norie, 1839 edition, regarding amplitudes ... "The observation should be made when the Sun's lower limb appears somewhat more than his semidiameter above the horizon ..." etc. If I search long enough, there probably is a reference to a full diameter somewhere, always bearing in mind the old saying "different ships different long splices", as well as the simple fact that you don't learn practical navigation from a book - only the bare technical essentials. On Mon, 2 May 2005 10:30:09 +0100 George Huxtablewrites: > Henry Halboth responded to Kieran Kelly's request included this > comment- > > If observed with Sun's center on the > >visible horizon as at sea, a correction for refraction + parallax + > dip > >(if applicable) would technically be necessary; it was, however, > >customary for seagoing navigators to observe the Sun when a > diameter > >above the horizon and to ignore this correction - certainly not > "precise" > >but good enough in ascertaining compass error at sea. One may also > refer > >to Tables 27 + 28 in Bowditch and achieve the same result by > >interpolation. > > That's interesting. When Henry says that navigators "observe the Sun > when a > diameter above the horizon", what part of the Sun disc does that > refer to? > If it's the Sun's centre, that would correspond reasonably closely > with the > statement in the Admiralty Navigation Manual, vol II, that at the > moment of > Theoretical Sunset, when the true altitude of the Sun's centre was > at 0deg > 0', the altitude of the Sun's lower limb would be 16 arc-minutes. > > Presumably, if a closer approximation to theoretical sunset was > wanted, an > observer could also allow for his height of eye, adding say 4 > minutes to > the altitude of the observed Sun (perhaps just by estimation) if his > height > above sea level was 16 feet. > > However, there's never going to be any great precision in estimating > the > moment of theoretical sunset that way, because the refraction near > the > horizon is so great, and so variable. > > It seems, then, that we have two very different "moments of sunset". > There's the dictionary definition, the instant when the last rays > twinkle > at the horizon, which is what the sunset predictions at 3-day > intervals in > the Nautical Almanac refer to (though perforce they omit any > correction for > height of eye, not knowing what that will be). And there's > Theoretical > Sunset, when the true altitude of the Sun's centre is zero, and the > Sun's > centre actually appears to be a diameter (or more, depending on dip) > above > the horizon. It's this latter moment, of theoretical sunset, that's > been > used for tables of sunset times and amplitudes in several epitomes, > such as > Raper and Norie, without stating that important distinction clearly, > or at > all. > > Henry says that the method of estimation he describes was customary > for > navigators, and I believe him. But I haven't seen it referred to in > textbooks, and I wonder whether it was ever advocated in formal > advice to > mariners. > > ========================================= > ========================================= > > This may be relevant to my earlier question of April 6th, "Request > for help > re sunset predictions." to which Henry, and Dan Allen, have > responded. > > Here it is, again. > > =============== > "I'm following some whaling journals of William Scoresby the > younger, who > visited the Greenland Sea (West of Spitzbergen) each year from 1811. > > Some of his time-sights, to determine LAT, were taken by observing > the > moment of sunset. I take that to be defined by the last glimpse of > the > Sun's upper limb above the horizon. Does anyone think differently? > > To my mind, it's a poor choice of moment to determine time, when the > Sun's > centre appears to be actually below the horizon, and refraction > corrections > are large, and rather variable. However, that was what he did, on > occasion. > It saved the trouble of getting his sextant out, no doubt. > > He appears to have obtained his local time, at the moment of sunset, > from > tables into which he entered lat and dec, quoting a resulting time > of > sunset to the second, e.g. "6h 13m 28s pm". > > Does anyone know where such tables were to be found, by a navigator > in 1811? > > My earliest such compendium is Raper's "Practice of Navigation", > 1864, in > which table 26 is "apparent time of the Sun's rising and setting", > tabulating lat at intervals of 1deg, but dec at intervals of 2deg, > and > giving a time to the nearest minute. Not nearly good enough for > interpolating a result to the nearest second. Not only that, the > time of > sunset, for all lats, when the dec is exactly zero, is given as > exactly > 6pm. That would only be true for a star (with no semidiameter) and > if the > refraction and dip were exactly zero: or if all three quantities > cancelled > out to zero. It seems that Raper's table 26 is intended to give no > more > than a rough notion of time of sunset, good enough for many > purposes, but > not for a time-sight. > > I also have an edition of Norie's, tables dating from 1914, which > gives > table XLIII (43), "semidiurnal and seminocturnal arcs" , giving > times from > noon to sunset to the nearest minute, and in this case the decs are > tabulated in intervals of 1 degree. But this is claimed to handle > "any > celestial object", and there's no provision to insert a Sun > semidiameter, > so presumably this table also isn't intended to give any precise > timing for > the moment of sunset. > > So I ask any Nav-L members, who own or have access to navigation > tables for > the early 19th century, whether they can identify any table, > anywhere, of > sunrises/sunsets, that Scoresby might have used to get his LHA, in > 1811 and > following years." > ================= > > If Scoresby chose to time for sunset, not the moment of the last > twinkle, > but the moment at which the Sun's centre was, say, a diameter above > the > horizon (perhaps estimated by eye, and perhaps including an extra > allowance > for dip depending on his height of eye), then the Sunset tables in > Raper > and Norie would give him the right answer. Or would, if refraction > at the > horizon was actually at its predicted "mean value". > > So, I ask, would a navigater of the day (1811) be familiar with the > "dodge" > that Henry describes above, and accustomed to estimating, by eye, at > just > what moment the Sun passes through that particular altitude? > > As I noted earlier, it's not, in any way, the ideal moment to take a > time-sight. > > George. > > ================================================================ > contact George Huxtable by email at george@huxtable.u-net.com, by > phone at > 01865 820222 (from outside UK, +44 1865 820222), or by mail at 1 > Sandy > Lane, Southmoor, Abingdon, Oxon OX13 5HX, UK. > ================================================================ >